Discussion:
Is God a Good Theory?
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shattered hologram
2022-08-28 15:13:33 UTC
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In Reply to:
God is not a Good Theory (Sean Carroll)


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Here the greatest argument against the Universe being created by God is the existence of a vast number, 100s of billions of stars in at least the 100s of billion of galaxies of all forms, shapes, and sizes.

The author dismissed the dozens of fine-tuned physical constants without which life could not exist as something accidental, as if we could have at least (10³⁸)²⁰ (range of numbers times the number of constants) universes in a multiverse in which only a handful of them would have useful constants like the mass of electron or charge of proton to enable the existence of life. It is clear that both the number of values of the constants and the number of the constants themselves are just underestimations of the real physical universe.

The other possibility the author uses is the existence of other life forms with different physical constants, but those life forms might look to us as no. 1 to no. 9 hybrids of Alien's and Ripley's DNA, wouldn't they?

Not much appealing and maybe even begging for the end of the existence ...

To the idea of a Creator of the Universe and His existence I could add the possibility of the holographic Universe, in which a Universe with a single galaxy with life would be possible, but it would be faith and blurry, just as in a hologram's shattered parts there is still a whole image, but less accurate, more blurry.

This is not a new concept, I've seen a full-plate and shattered plate hologram back then in the 1990s.

But the author did not consider the necessity of the multitude of the galaxies to reinforce the accuracy of the physical constants, for having them off by a tiny bit could make life and its reproduction unpredictable: only a fraction of 4³ ⁰⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ = 10¹ ⁸⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ (three billion ACTG pairs in DNA) creates meaningful life that wouldn't look like the Alien morphs ...

And what can be told about God Creator is His aesthetic criteria: we perceive the creation as beautiful - all of those 100 billion galaxies are appealing to the eye and they are not making us uninterested: they seem inviting to the generations to improve in knowledge and the technology in order to once get there ...

Second argument.

The existence of evil.

Without the possibility to choose wrong, the choice is irrelevant - each way leads to a good end. I believe that the purpose of the Creator is - by love - to create beings that have the possibility to challenge His Mind.

This also means the knowledge of both good and evil and choosing always good. (Like Jesus did.)

But also implies some "error recovery", learning from the errors. In the movie "Limitless" the multi-billionaire warns the main character how he is destroying them with his powers because they are not earned. The billionaire explained that "earning" those powers included the errors made in the process (and learning from them). This is perhaps why the systems that eliminated people on the first error are not thriving as democratic societies with a free market that allows nine in ten companies to fail without anyone executed by the firing squad.

All religions explain that there had been some conflict in the creation or immediately after. The creation of beings that can challenge one's mind and giving them the free will required implies that one will eventually do so. Possibly leading others with him.

Anything less but letting things go until their end and believing that Good will eventually win would be less than an absolutely loving Creator. (A loving parent lets his child run sports because it is generally good despite the fact that some children have bruises, cuts, or even broken bones. We call the parents that prevent that "overprotective".)

This didn't happen, though, so God sent the Deluge, and after seeing that it was mostly because of the primal rebellion which He allowed, He decided to send a Saviour, who will pay for the unlawful energy created.

It is evident that the Universe is governed by the laws, that beings are created by both their physical and non-material part and that unlawful pleasurable and evil acts increase the entropy of the Universe, tearing its fabric and i.e. making the climate go awry.

It is possible that by enough sin and evil even the matter would lose the possibility to sustain life as we know it, and the Universe would be undone like some social structures and societies because of crime and corruption. That is there not by the law and design, but by breaking the law (lawlessness).

It is possible that without the holographic backing from the 100s of billions of galaxies, quasars, and the like creations, our solar system would have already suffered degradation of physical constants and life would have degraded to less tame and aesthetic forms like in the Mordor land of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.

Let's go to the basic premise of procreation, the duplication of the genetic code.

The chances of exact copying 3 billion ACTG pairs of DNA by random are

1 / 4³ ⁰⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ = 10⁻¹ ⁸⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰

So it is practically impossible, it would have required more multiverses that the physical constants themselves. For each cell in each living organism.

Am I losing you?

But we might be looking wrong probability, as ACTG pairs do not come from a random combination of a whole string, but from copying each "letter" in the 3,000,000,000 letters long DNA sequence.

This has to be done exactly in each DNA string, in each cell, or the cell would reproduce in a defective manner, possibly resulting in cell death or cancer.

It seems evident that this precision is hard to explain by the hardwired chemistry of the carbon-hydrogen-nitrogen-based life. The DNA replication itself appears to be unexpectedly punctual most of the time as if it is assisted by a force other than electromagnetic, weak nuclear, strong nuclear, and gravity.

There appears to be a fifth force that is unique to life.

Eventually, holographic assistance is required for such a precise duplication, as the laws of governing must be so precise.

I will explain:

One billionth (0.0000001% or 10⁻⁹) possibility of error in the replication of an ACTG pair would amount to 0.5% probability of error in replicating 3,000,000,000 pairs, amounting to 1 in 200 DNA strings containing error! (This is worse than cancer, more like radiation sickness in the last stage.)

If the precision of a pair is 0.999999999999999 (an error rate of 10⁻¹⁵), the error rate in DNA chain duplication would still be 3 in a million DNA strains (0.0003%). This can probably be fixed by the immune system, but this high precision and error in 1 in 10¹⁵ (thousand trillion) duplications are hard to explain by electrochemical laws themselves. We know that electrons have quantum properties and do not behave completely orderly and classical, and femto low error rate of 10⁻¹⁵. (Or we would not feel quantum effects in microchips at the nanometer level.)

The problem is with the estimation of the error rate in DNA duplication that would allow evolution, but not make DNA degrade over several hundreds of generations, as uncorrected errors are inevitably generationally cumulative.

It is possible that the degradation of matter, space, and life fabric due to broken connection with the Source that sustains them eventually leads to more genetic replication diseases, which is consistent with the findings in the last 30 or 40 years. There is an unprecedented surge of Down syndrome, for example.

The religions from ancient times somehow felt or knew that the sacrifice of an innocent living being somehow remedies the spacetime/matter/ life fabric degradation.

This was always done in parallel with the "exposure" of the weak and deformed offspring.

Today we take the perfect sacrifice of the living Messiah for granted, as well as the daily sacrifices offered by the religions.

Once the religions are removed, the deterioration of the spacetime fabric due to lawless pleasure and sinful deeds will be so intense and undeniable that mankind will return to the animal and even the human sacrifices, which will not stop the end as it did not in the times of the Flood, registered in the memories of all cultures.

We see this tendency already in mobbing and bullying, usually targeted at the most knowledgeable or exceptional, good children, but also grownups.

The crowds participating in this form of lynching projects its unconscious evil ("sin") on the scapegoated unsuspecting victim. In reality, it doesn't stop until victim's self-harm (temporarily) or death (when the crowd finds temporay relief, for their evil sin is killed together with the scapegoat on which it was projected). But all of this is only temporary, for the crowds still commit disorderly conduct, or there happen things like abnormal births, traffic accidents, bad drought or flood, which is connected with the next scapegoated person.

Who needs to be punished. Bullied. Beaten up. Or killed. Burned alive.

This is the way mankind (even the "civilised" societies, advanced in technology), react when disconnected from their Creator. Being in religion did not always amend that ("witch hunts" are just an implementation of the scapegoating principle when the connection with living God is dead).

I hope you found this text interesting.

in the Lord
Amen
shattered hologram
2022-08-28 15:28:10 UTC
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ERRATA:

To the idea of a Creator of the Universe and His existence I could add the possibility of the holographic Universe, in which a Universe with a single galaxy with life would be possible, but it would be FAINT and blurry, just as in a hologram's shattered parts there is still a whole image, but less accurate, more blurry.

But the author did not consider the necessity of the multitude of the galaxies to reinforce the accuracy of the physical constants, for having them off by a tiny bit could make life and its reproduction unpredictable: only a fraction of 4³ ⁰⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ = 10¹ ⁸⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ COMBINATIONS (of the three billion ACTG pairs in DNA) creates meaningful life that wouldn't look like the Alien morphs ...
Greg Carr
2022-08-28 16:02:43 UTC
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Post by shattered hologram
To the idea of a Creator of the Universe and His existence I could add the possibility of the holographic Universe, in which a Universe with a single galaxy with life would be possible, but it would be FAINT and blurry, just as in a hologram's shattered parts there is still a whole image, but less accurate, more blurry.
But the author did not consider the necessity of the multitude of the galaxies to reinforce the accuracy of the physical constants, for having them off by a tiny bit could make life and its reproduction unpredictable: only a fraction of 4³ ⁰⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ = 10¹ ⁸⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ ⁰⁰⁰ COMBINATIONS (of the three billion ACTG pairs in DNA) creates meaningful life that wouldn't look like the Alien morphs ...
You either believe or you don't. I believe.
shattered hologram
2022-08-28 16:32:22 UTC
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Post by Greg Carr
You either believe or you don't. I believe.
Apostle Paul was humbly proving the existence of God and Christ to the Athenians at the Areopagus square, where Athenians would gather for nothing but to hear some new theory. he was mocked, but he continued nevertheless. Stephen continued despite the obvious danger of getting stoned.

Just now I have found a bowl of cooked veggies that was packed 3 days ago and left in the 30 Celsius outside. I forgot to put it into the refrigerator.

After this came the thought that giving the mankind hundreds of generations in case of the uncorrected cumulative damage to DNA may be too optimistic, maybe three (3) would be more accurate.

The Universe set apart from its Creator and Maintainer might end up just as this food. The Christians and believers in general are called "the salt of the earth". Salt generally prevented things from corruption and rotting in hot Israel in the time of Jesus without refrigerators.

This will probably be the fate of the mankind once the church is removed, and the one who stops "The Man of Lawlessness".

in the Lord
Amen
Greg Carr
2022-08-28 17:51:15 UTC
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Post by shattered hologram
Post by Greg Carr
You either believe or you don't. I believe.
Apostle Paul was humbly proving the existence of God and Christ to the Athenians at the Areopagus square, where Athenians would gather for nothing but to hear some new theory. he was mocked, but he continued nevertheless. Stephen continued despite the obvious danger of getting stoned.
Just now I have found a bowl of cooked veggies that was packed 3 days ago and left in the 30 Celsius outside. I forgot to put it into the refrigerator.
After this came the thought that giving the mankind hundreds of generations in case of the uncorrected cumulative damage to DNA may be too optimistic, maybe three (3) would be more accurate.
The Universe set apart from its Creator and Maintainer might end up just as this food. The Christians and believers in general are called "the salt of the earth". Salt generally prevented things from corruption and rotting in hot Israel in the time of Jesus without refrigerators.
This will probably be the fate of the mankind once the church is removed, and the one who stops "The Man of Lawlessness".
in the Lord
Amen
Interesting post.

https://www.vocativ.com/news/309748/all-the-people-god-kills-in-the-bible/index.html check this out!
shattered hologram
2022-08-29 07:12:14 UTC
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Post by Greg Carr
https://www.vocativ.com/news/309748/all-the-people-god-kills-in-the-bible/index.html check this out!
Apparently, if what they say is true, mankind had also killed God and evened the score.
In fact, they killed Him twice: first His body, then the very idea of Him.

However, God still supplies life on Earth with a life-sustaining force like Russian gas through Ukraine despite the war ...

Do you know a joke about it?

Why are the galaxies all in red Doppler shift? They are running away from us as fast as they can ...

in the Lord
Amen
Greg Carr
2022-08-29 18:15:32 UTC
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Post by shattered hologram
Post by Greg Carr
https://www.vocativ.com/news/309748/all-the-people-god-kills-in-the-bible/index.html check this out!
Apparently, if what they say is true, mankind had also killed God and evened the score.
In fact, they killed Him twice: first His body, then the very idea of Him.
However, God still supplies life on Earth with a life-sustaining force like Russian gas through Ukraine despite the war ...
Do you know a joke about it?
Why are the galaxies all in red Doppler shift? They are running away from us as fast as they can ...
in the Lord
Amen
Nice joke. You ever read about the https://www.britannica.com/science/Mossbauer-effect friend of mine did a report on it in high school.
shattered hologram
2022-08-29 22:44:17 UTC
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Post by Greg Carr
Post by shattered hologram
Post by Greg Carr
https://www.vocativ.com/news/309748/all-the-people-god-kills-in-the-bible/index.html check this out!
Apparently, if what they say is true, mankind had also killed God and evened the score.
In fact, they killed Him twice: first His body, then the very idea of Him.
However, God still supplies life on Earth with a life-sustaining force like Russian gas through Ukraine despite the war ...
Do you know a joke about it?
Why are the galaxies all in red Doppler shift? They are running away from us as fast as they can ...
in the Lord
Amen
Nice joke. You ever read about the https://www.britannica.com/science/Mossbauer-effect friend of mine did a report on it in high school.
Thanks. I've glanced over the article and it seems like some gamma Doppler resonance effect that enables precise measurement of the gamma rays frequency ...
Possibly of black holes and supernovas? Obviously, red shift wouldn't shift to gamma high-frequency spectrum ...

Interesting stuff. Didn't know of it, really.

Anyway, as the nearest Andromeda galaxy is about 2 million light-years away, it would take a very fast FTL drive to get there.
Andromeda is safe, by now ;-)

To get to billions of light-years distant galaxies, space-folding would probably be more optimal. Aquibierre warp drive seems to do nasty things to the spacetime continuum,
and it would probably be banned soon. Just like the idea of blasting nukes behind the spaceship every now and then. This would probably even be banned by the toxic waste transporting race from Star Trek Voyager.

Folding space like in Dune seems more promising. And the actual way that it is done, by minds of special beings, not by technology ...

Very appealing idea ...

If God Creator wanted us to travel to different galaxies, He'd probably give us a way to enable us for that endeavour.
People thought that going around the earth is impossible because they would fall from the edge ... Maybe the light speed limit and time paradox exist only in minds and formulas?

After all, the intertial systems are not all the same, and it is not relative who is moving, or you wouldn't know which twin aged slower after traveling next to the speed of light, right?
For, if there is no referential system that doesn't move, then which twin traveled?

It seems that spacetime and matter have some kind of "memory" of which system had accelerated and decelerated, to distinguish from the system that did not move (except around the Sun, which moves around the galaxy, which moves around the local cluster etc).

Of course, when I faced people with this, they said it is something about the theory of relativity we simply do not understand yet.

in the Lord
Amen
JLM
2022-09-01 01:56:23 UTC
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Post by shattered hologram
if there is no referential system that doesn't move, then which twin traveled?
Funny, but people dislike double negative positives.
--
http://gamo.sdf-eu.org/index.html
World peace, no less!
shattered hologram
2022-09-04 11:21:06 UTC
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Post by JLM
Post by shattered hologram
if there is no referential system that doesn't move, then which twin traveled?
Funny, but people dislike double negative positives.
It is recent stuff. Old English is full of them.
Living languages evolve ...

It is hard for me because I am not a native English speaker.

Likewise, Croatian teachers hate passive expressions, but the scientific Croatian and the legal Croatian language is full of them.

However, I love English and I'd like to improve, rather than terrorise people with my version of the language.

I don't know if the double negative is frowned upon in British English as well?

You should see my tenses and spelling without the Grammarly, though :-(
Greg Carr
2022-09-05 19:08:27 UTC
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Post by shattered hologram
Post by JLM
Post by shattered hologram
if there is no referential system that doesn't move, then which twin traveled?
Funny, but people dislike double negative positives.
It is recent stuff. Old English is full of them.
Living languages evolve ...
It is hard for me because I am not a native English speaker.
Likewise, Croatian teachers hate passive expressions, but the scientific Croatian and the legal Croatian language is full of them.
However, I love English and I'd like to improve, rather than terrorise people with my version of the language.
I don't know if the double negative is frowned upon in British English as well?
You should see my tenses and spelling without the Grammarly, though :-(
I have the book Leviathan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(Hobbes_book) written in 1651 yes English and other languages evolve and are created Esperanto and Klingon. Good luck and GOD BLESS learning English I understand it is hard for ppl to learn as a second language I totally sucked in school when taking Espanol and Francais. Fortunately I did quite well in History and Geography and Social Studies and non-Algebra Math and Psychology and Sociology and Criminology.
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